tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post5601637678853681084..comments2023-12-15T21:49:46.651+01:00Comments on Pluralist Speaks: Preaching and AuthenticityPluralist (Adrian Worsfold)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-85255580212538694692009-07-21T10:20:57.627+02:002009-07-21T10:20:57.627+02:00On the whole I agree with Erika, that a sermon in ...On the whole I agree with Erika, that a sermon in a worship context should not be a theology seminar ; at the end of a worship service I want to go away encouraged in the broadest sense - Monday morning should dawn a little more brightly as a result of what the preacher has said on Sunday evening.On the other hand I recognise the 'deception strategies' that you describe only too frequently in the sermons I hear from the choir stalls - and no one can be encouraged by being tricked.NUFernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-57491268403673353002009-07-18T15:07:47.874+02:002009-07-18T15:07:47.874+02:00Of course I don't usually preach in an Anglica...Of course I don't usually preach in an Anglican setting, and have done so twice. Once was to a Men's Meeting in which I gave an interfaith based approach which left the villagers' jaws dropped, and after which there was a perceptible shift in the priest's sermons in the church (he was a religious humanist) and then I did a midweek Easter stations of the cross service where I now attend described part way through by the priest as "this is very good" and it also was challenging to the usual.<br /><br />But there is the once a month almost concert service with no sermon at all and many a sermon is no more than a lifted description of some historical figure in the calendar who hardly deserves to be there.<br /><br />So there is choice, and when its known that someone like me might present a service, some folks would inevitable stay away or read the notices while I say something inevitably controversial.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-62993389238780019602009-07-18T12:25:14.436+02:002009-07-18T12:25:14.436+02:00I'm not saying that I have a core belief that ...I'm not saying that I have a core belief that could be devastated by your speculations.<br /><br />I'm saying that I'm coming to church to worship God and to pray, and not to hear about the preacher's theological opinions.<br />Church is about spending time with God, not about spending times with the preacher's abstract thoughts about God. <br /><br />When I'm really low, I need comfort and, say, the readings are about the miracles, it's wonderful if the preacher can illuminate their meaning in a light that gives me hope. What I don't need is an over-intellectualised sermon that informs me that it's ok if I should believe in the miracles, but the preacher doesn't, and here's a list of theologians who support him.<br /><br />To do that is legitimate in lectures. It is not legitimate in worship.<br /><br />It's like with music - at a lecture, I'd expect information on the construction of a piece, on its context, on its development and a hundred and other clever things.<br /><br />At a concert, I want to be allowed to listen to it and let the deeper meaning of the music touch my heart, without a voice over from someone who feels they absoultely have to educate my musical knowledge at that very moment.<br />Only someone who hasn't understood what music is actually about would even want to do that.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-63326672029005656342009-07-18T05:43:10.485+02:002009-07-18T05:43:10.485+02:00Of course I've not called the whole tradition ...Of course I've not called the whole tradition or some core beliefs superstition: superstition is that clutter of the magical that seems to be added on, and I made a reference to St. Swithin and all that, and one strategy about how people used to believe and we think differently today but we are free to believe as we wish. I called this more honest but it was dangerous if repeated.<br /><br />What you are doing is moving the debate along - which is fine - to the big issues. You are saying that you have this core unshakable belief in God that I could devastate by my speculations. Really? I doubt it. After all, my speculations in a theology setting could be just as devastating, but I bet your belief is stronger than that.<br /><br />But would I so speculate on this across the board basis in this way. Suppose I believe that you construct your God that is so central to your belief (and you disagree). Then my authenticity here is that you construct it and it matters to you. Well I gather that it matters to you, and there is the dialogue and pastoral sensitivity too. So the words I use will allow you to have your belief. Question is, then, does the fact that my view includes its construction (saying so here - what effect is it having saying so here?) have on you? It should have no effect on you, because the worship words have pliability for you (whose view you know - no deception here) and for me.<br /><br />Now you are really asking more general questions: that is, what does it mean to ME to use these very theistic words when indeed I do. Have a look at my services to see how I use them - indeed, how I construct them. Now for that I would need to write a different blog entry or even longer, starting from the top.<br /><br />Religious faith, when it is Buddhist, of course, is not about God and is about authenticity, and that's one of my starting points.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-68193027085754983902009-07-17T21:54:37.369+02:002009-07-17T21:54:37.369+02:00My mind keeps going round and round what you seem ...My mind keeps going round and round what you seem to be saying and I want to question it from two angles.<br /><br />One is your belief that you can be pastorally sensitive if you preach that God is superstition. And I feel myself taken back to when my daughter was first being treated for leukemia. When I spent more hours crying than I’d ever cried before, when I spent more hours trying to come to terms with the practical daily changes in our lives, with the fears, the harshness of the chemo, the extended hospital stays. The saving grace in it all was my palpable sense of being carried by God. I didn’t have much chance to go to church, but when I did it was an absolute haven. A time to rest, a time to connect, a time to cry, to pray, to be held. If my priest had interrupted that precious hour with her own agenda, with her insistence that I needed a bit of challenging, if she had said in principle that what I experienced as comfort was nothing but superstition, so there – I would have been absolutely devastated. I probably would have left in tears, feeling completely rejected and misunderstood at one of the most vulnerable times of my life.<br />What right would you have claimed to do that to me?<br /><br />And you know that my theology is so radical that most liberals even won’t accept me as one of theirs. But my core belief in God is solid, my need for him in my life absolute.<br />I would happily go to your in-depth group, I would happily discuss theology with you over many pints of beer.<br />But when I’m at church I’m there to pray. <br /><br />The other question is your own role in all of this. Why do you avail yourself of the outer forms of worship if its core content is meaningless to you? What are you saying, when you guide us through the prayers of penitence, through the hymns, the readings….. then comes the sermon slot and you have a “lets get rid of this superstition” interlude… and having clarified your belief and shocked the rest of us out of what you perceive to be intellectual complacency, we all forget the truth you’ve just shown us and continue with our little charade…. “The Lord is here, his Spirit is with us”…. How can you do this to us and to yourself, with any kind of integrity?<br /><br />I don’t want to attack you, please do not understand it like that. But I have to ask the questions in such a radical way because unless I understand your answers to them I don’t think I can understand at all what you’re really saying.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-91027158351377763792009-07-17T20:39:28.886+02:002009-07-17T20:39:28.886+02:00The theological enterprise is for everyone, that i...The theological enterprise is for everyone, that is not being doubted.<br /><br />But Worship and theology are two completely different things.<br />Worship is for people who find themselves somewhere within the intellectual framework of the church or religion they are part of, and leading Worship is for those who can represent the tenets of that church or religion with some personal conviction. <br /><br />Worship is NOT an intellectual activity but a relational activity directed at God. By definition you simply cannot do it if you do not believe in God. The exegesis during a sermon is about trying to understand the God you’ve come to worship better, not about arguing that a belief in that God is superstition.<br /><br />I agree that the notion that God is truth as well as love must not be violated. But the congregations’ truth that God exists must not be violated by the preacher either. <br />“The God I don’t believe in would be truth and love if I believed in him” is nothing more than playing games with the people who have come explicitly because they believe in that God and want to meet him in that one hour on a Sunday morning. You simply have no right to destroy that for them, because that’s precisely what Worship is for.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-87316770472430337682009-07-17T18:06:57.562+02:002009-07-17T18:06:57.562+02:00No, I don't agree with either of you.
The per...No, I don't agree with either of you.<br /><br />The person who preaches matters, and there is a dialogue between that person and the congregation pastorally and intellectually. And there should not be a situation where preachers are having to employ deceptive strategies because, surely, that would be against the notion of God as truth as well as love, and I translate that as authenticity.<br /><br />Basically what you are saying is that people like Rev. Cupitt, Bishop Holloway and me (!) are not to preach because we have done some theology and this upsets some of the folk in the pews, but the consequence is that we should therefore either exclude liberals from leading the believers or just have churches identified as liberal, fundy, new age superstitious, sacramentalist and so on, so that you know what you get when you go in and so the converted can talk to the converted.<br /><br />Don't agree: the theological enterprise is for everyone, and if there are a few shocks along the way then that's the time to set up a theology group and do a supportive course.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-20644288196232385302009-07-17T17:46:22.892+02:002009-07-17T17:46:22.892+02:00I also agree with Erika.
I don't understand w...I also agree with Erika.<br /><br />I don't understand why people such as yourself, Cupitt and Holloway behave as you do. It is entirely OK for you still to attend churches - it's not OK for you still to want to lead churches. By all means, continue your explorations vocally IN SOME OTHER CONTEXT.<br /><br />I qualify slightly. The Virgin Birth is such a trivial issue that it would be quite OK to say quickly, 'personally, I don't believe in it'; but it would be disproportionate and self-indulgent to devote a whole sermon to defence of your position.<br /><br />I don't preach, but on the level of individual discussion, if someone in our congregation asks me if I believe in the VB or seeks to make it a litmus test of Christianity, I frankly declare my disbelief in it (and give reasons, if pressed). But I don't go around challenging the people in my church who do believe in it (including old ladies and gay guys) and who seem to derive great comfort from it.<br /><br />There are serious issues here of charity, of comfort, of getting along with people you disagree with, of supporting one another, of keeping things in due proportion, of struggling along.johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-22768047905008303232009-07-17T17:27:48.957+02:002009-07-17T17:27:48.957+02:00Religious faith is not about a relationship with a...Religious faith is not about a relationship with authenticity, but about a relationship with God, however you define him, who is believed to be authentic.<br /><br />Once you take God completely out of it you're in the realm of philosophy and not religion, at least not while you are operating within the framework of an organised church in the UK.<br /><br />As a preacher, it really really isn't about you. It is about your congregation and their needs. To try and yank them out of what you call superstition - in the middle of a service where people come together to worship God! - is a huge category error.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-55908426347329717962009-07-17T16:31:14.345+02:002009-07-17T16:31:14.345+02:00I really cannot agree with that at all. That leave...I really cannot agree with that at all. That leaves the churches to the purveyors of superstition and the pure supernatural like a linear set up ticks of approval upwards. If that's the case, I'm out of there. If that's the case, then only the liberal denomination will do. Religious faith, and preaching, is not about how many belief hoops you can pass through, but it is about a relationship with authenticity.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-52862294612392568042009-07-17T09:37:14.403+02:002009-07-17T09:37:14.403+02:00The problem with sermons is that you have no idea ...The problem with sermons is that you have no idea why anyone in your congregation is at church that morning and what they need. Some need encouragement, some comfort, some intellectual stimulation.<br />And they're all at different points in their faith journey, so even the intellectual stimulation required will vary from person to person.<br /><br />It's very very hard to satisfy them all. <br />But I do believe that if a priest makes it about him or herself and about their intellect and theology only, they're badly missing the mark.<br /><br />I'm not saying that you have to preach what is against your belief. But a sermon is not a theology seminar. It is there to provide a potential touching point with God.<br /><br />For your average congregation, which is unlikely to be ultra-liberal, it would also help if you believed in God.<br /><br />The more we move to the extreme liberal spectrum the less we're actually suited to preach to people.<br />Lecture, yes.<br />Discuss, yes.<br />Study group, yes.<br />But leading worship and preaching - I seriously doubt it.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-33140076508444792122009-07-16T19:18:40.190+02:002009-07-16T19:18:40.190+02:00I also agree with you. The only solution I have to...I also agree with you. The only solution I have to offer for the time being is the 'long term plan' but I suppose there's a sort of duplicity involved there as well. <br /><br />I think most congregations are just unused to honesty, but I can't see why if someone like you explained their viewpoint fully, it would be a problem for them. I can recall a few 'shocking' sermons (denial of the ascension, comparison of Jesus to poorly chosen modern dictator - don't ask: it did make sense in context, but you know how we Anglicans can be about context) and the strength of them lay in the honesty of the preacher as they explained where they were coming from.<br /><br />And the fact that we already knew them quite well, which is what I meant by the 'long term plan'. Nonetheless, I think it is more a matter of 'taking the first step'.laBiscuitnapperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07085674629106780182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-33891051118776731042009-07-16T17:46:15.007+02:002009-07-16T17:46:15.007+02:00In any case, sermons should be more than about Bib...In any case, sermons should be more than about Bible readings, and more about life - 'life, life' as Don Cupitt would say. The strategies outlined are still played out and they are unhealthy whereas we should be affirming - yes, in a sermon - the potential of life.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-33235672622584661572009-07-16T17:42:55.972+02:002009-07-16T17:42:55.972+02:00No, I think that's a cop out. Because it alway...No, I think that's a cop out. Because it always has to be in terms of agreement, whereas 'spiritual food' can still be done in terms of rejection.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-86810898080192906302009-07-16T10:50:45.195+02:002009-07-16T10:50:45.195+02:00Adrian
I'd agree with you if you were talking ...Adrian<br />I'd agree with you if you were talking about giving a lecture.<br />But you're taking about a sermon, a small exegesis of the spiritual importance of a particular bible reading.<br />For that, it is entirely irrelevant whether your or any theologian believes this or that. <br />Your only task is to find a way of speaking that allows people in your congregation to feel touched by God, regardless of what they might believe about the virgin birth.<br /><br />In a sermon during worship you're called to give spiritual food, not intellectual development - that's for your in-depth group.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.com