tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post5800636630623163778..comments2023-12-15T21:49:46.651+01:00Comments on Pluralist Speaks: Religious Careers and FlexibilityPluralist (Adrian Worsfold)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-66198059026442999732011-07-25T22:22:25.814+02:002011-07-25T22:22:25.814+02:00If Unitarians were to merge with Quakers, you woul...If Unitarians were to merge with Quakers, you would lose two very distinct and enlightening traditions.<br /><br />It's not just a case of noisey and quiet - the Quakers have a substantial body of thought and practice beyond silence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-62008552684107017282011-07-20T20:24:57.317+02:002011-07-20T20:24:57.317+02:00Thanks for your reply. Was good to read your follo...Thanks for your reply. Was good to read your follow-up post. Based on what you have written, my feeling on Hull's position is that the congregation isn't doing itself any favours by not advertising its vacancy. Filling a position may take some time, even several years, but if the congregation wants a permanent professional leader, a perceived "lack of candidates" on the GA roll closes a major avenue to recruiting a minister, especially at a time when there are some strong ministerial students currently in training.Tim Moorehttp://timothyjmoore.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-88351875361054321402011-07-20T15:28:35.386+02:002011-07-20T15:28:35.386+02:00Thanks Tim, most interesting. I have two disagreem...Thanks Tim, most interesting. I have two disagreements. First, it is a good thing that ministers should put themselves about beyond the single congregation. Long ago I argued for methods of oversight and co-ordination via central payments and ministers acting as trainers.<br /><br />Second disagreement is that in the haphazard situation, there are places (like Hull) with plenty of available money but no candidates. The fact that people like you won't train, or that I am ambiguous, generates a lack of candidates. If Hull thought it would get a choice of people then it would be more likely to advertise. As such it has not and there have just been occasional unofficial and unusual routes to try out.<br /><br />The question is how much better are the ministers than the lay people. One thought is that some of the lay people are as well read and skilled as some ministers. There are some disasters wandering around - I fear for one place after gossip suggests an appointment is about to be made. I don't know if ministry training has been improved from when I tried it, but if it is roughly the same then I have little confidence in it making much of a difference.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-90316168327295863232011-07-19T23:52:31.344+02:002011-07-19T23:52:31.344+02:00Thanks for your thoughts and stories, Adrian.
Uni...Thanks for your thoughts and stories, Adrian.<br /><br />Unitarian Ministry: I agree that probably all Unitarian ministerial posts now are "development opportunities" in their own right. Yet the situation at the moment is one of very few full time vacancies for licensed ministers. Many Unitarian churches with a recently departed minister either can no longer afford a minister, or would prefer to invest funds in other areas, including lay leadership, which comes with its own pluses or minuses, including a lower level of professional and academic training, but is also lower cost and mostly designated as a part-time role. That (full-time) vanacies are so few and far between, and consequently scattered across the country is one of a number of reasons why I don't imminently plan to apply for ministerial training, despite having made formal enquiries.<br /><br />My own ecclesiology of ministry largely fits the Presbyterian model continued by the Unitarians: of a learned minister presiding (though not controlling) the congregation. In the Unitarian movement, this has existed alongside the Baptist tradition of nurturing a (lay) minister from within the congregation. What we're seeing in the Unitarian movement currently, however, is of the rather small collegium of licensed ministers become more powerful and in some respects more *episcopal* in nature. Ministers are expected to offer much more beyond their own congregations in terms of worship leading and teaching. Meanwhile the wider movement looks up towards ministers to provide support to lay leaders of other congregations, supply worship material, generate ideas and provide strategic leadership. Demonstrating this, York has recently become an ecclesiastical hub for Unitarians, when we see Myrna Michell and Margaret Kirk make their regular visits to Scarborough, Whitby and Hull to lead worship, while Andrew Hill bases his active retirement from the city.<br /><br />As for your own enquiries about ministery, Adrian: owing to your previous experiences, maybe you're best approaching Alex Bradley or Linda Phillips individually outside the UCM open day, if you haven't done so already.<br /><br />Pioneer Ministry: We've read about Peter Ould and "Ordinandy", who have felt called specifically to minister in "emerging church"/"pioneer ministry" settings and do not feel that Church of England can provide for them. It is unfortunate and I am sorry that their institution has let the two men down and misled them about the sustainability of their ministries. The two men have been honest with themselves about their desire not to hold down normal pastoral ministry, but I think some perspective is required. <br /><br />Were Andy and Peter not members of the Church of England, would they have expected their respective denominations to provide for them a "pioneer ministry" opportunity following training? While it is true that "development opportunities" are available in all manner of (unlikely) locations, I know there are many other (young) ordinands who have gone into training on the understanding that their options upon exit may be limited and the opportunity to develop "alternative" ministries may not be available at all, or at most only as an add-on to a standard pastoral ministry.Tim Moorehttp://timothyjmoore.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-36594166593287375042011-07-19T19:59:23.853+02:002011-07-19T19:59:23.853+02:00Causing hurt, the ultimate sin? Crumbs, that's...Causing hurt, the ultimate sin? Crumbs, that's my ticket to heaven rubbed out then. Yes, Lesley, I continue to look for my round hole in more than one sphere of life. The problem is the many square holes when I have a round peg. I'll look at what you say, Louise. I did once start to put an account of my year at UCM on my website, and it drew comment of 'causing hurt'. Because it would be such a long project even to make it short and sweet, I eventually took it off.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-15592994989654135462011-07-19T13:03:24.387+02:002011-07-19T13:03:24.387+02:00I agree with Louise. This is a post well worth rea...I agree with Louise. This is a post well worth reading. What a pity that all too many of the Unitarians I know appear to be so much less open than they might wish to be, and far too ready to dismiss constructive criticism on the grounds of having committed the ultimate sin of "causing hurt".Barry Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04847007443755081472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-8429878085945962692011-07-19T10:59:51.290+02:002011-07-19T10:59:51.290+02:00Thanks for the kind wishes Adrian, and I hope you ...Thanks for the kind wishes Adrian, and I hope you find your 'round hole' too ooo... err... :)Lesleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17228191583982936566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-2426450302735822462011-07-19T09:35:51.186+02:002011-07-19T09:35:51.186+02:00Hi Adrian,fascinating post. We certainly need a n...Hi Adrian,fascinating post. We certainly need a new approach to ministry training. You have experience of it: I only have experience of observing the ministers produced. Of course some are very good but perhaps despite most of the training. <br /><br />If we are to have a modern faith community then we need to think about what this means, how we might get there and what professional support (not just spiritual guidance) we may need and plan to make that happen. <br /><br />Once more I am commenting/posting about the models that drive our thinking and our doing. Perhaps someone somewhere with the power to make this happen has been thinking about this - probably not. It is difficult to know what to do as an individual so clearly out of step with the powers that be. xxLouisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271769998586735852noreply@blogger.com