tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post8838874229896602202..comments2023-12-15T21:49:46.651+01:00Comments on Pluralist Speaks: Not Changing AttitudePluralist (Adrian Worsfold)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-16092870172799743702010-12-02T15:52:24.578+01:002010-12-02T15:52:24.578+01:00The game is still football, played by the other le...The game is still football, played by the other leagues, but the rules are considerably freer and, arguably, the game flows better, but whether it does or not, all the players get to be involved in the team. None have to sit out on the bench for every game.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-42254032895745952012010-12-02T14:11:01.585+01:002010-12-02T14:11:01.585+01:00Things aren't perfect elsewhere, but a whole l...<i>Things aren't perfect elsewhere, but a whole lot better than the corner now turned and the path laid out ahead for the mother Church of the compliant Covenant Communion.</i><br /><br />This is not America, Pluralist!<br /><br />Pray tell us where is this ecclesiastical Nirvana you talk of. Suggesting the Unitarians, Quakers and MCC is rather akin to suggesting that people fed up with the football association should join that other MCC - The Middlesex Cricket Club.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-92104655417931148592010-12-02T13:20:38.680+01:002010-12-02T13:20:38.680+01:00How so?
With so much already invested in the Coven...<i>How so?</i><br />With so much already invested in the Covenant politically it would have been remarkable if the Modern Church/Inclusive Church ad and the No Anglican Covenant campaign had persuaded a majority of General Synod. But without it the debate would have been a formality. We would not have seen Rowan so blatantly relying on personal loyalty, or Graham Kings making false statements on Radio 4 unchallenged, or whatever other negative points supporters of the Covenant may have accrued as a result.<br /><br />So far those points look unlikely to carry sufficient weight, I suspect because we haven't made clear enough the practical downsides of the Covenant. But there is now a foundation on which we can build.Dave Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760338391487226127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-23954063008643042502010-12-02T09:56:28.285+01:002010-12-02T09:56:28.285+01:00"The point was to prevent it going through on..."The point was to prevent it going through on the nod, which we did."<br /><br /><br />How so?<br />The normal process for an Act of Synod is to discuss vote for it in GS, then it is automatically handed to Deanery Synods before it winds its way back to GS.<br /><br />And whatever bishops may have said, all but one actually voted for the process (and passed up the opportunity to let Diocesan Synods debate it before they knew how Bishops would vote), so now DS is even more likely to rubber-stamp the overwhelming support we've seen so far.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-84352383760167022692010-12-02T02:20:12.696+01:002010-12-02T02:20:12.696+01:00I hope this vote doesn't cause liberals to lea...I hope this vote doesn't cause liberals to leave the Church of England. And while I'm doubtless not typical, I don't sense defeatism. <br /><br />My understanding was we didn't seriously expect to win the synod vote. The point was to prevent it going through on the nod, which we did. The Covenant debate is only an expression, with perhaps a little higher than usual profile, of what certainly Modern Church is about anyway - arguing for theology and ecclesiology that makes sense. <br /><br />Whatever shape Rowan pushes the C of E into (and I totally agree with whoever said it was a disgracefully manipulative performance at Synod) it will only create a somewhat different context within which we have to make our case. I don't detect much warmth towards anything less than one or another rigorously orthodox theology now, even without the Covenant.Dave Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760338391487226127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-5289151050084191762010-12-01T21:14:17.531+01:002010-12-01T21:14:17.531+01:00I think we will see many progressives taking advan...I think we will see many progressives taking advantage of the ease with which they can join TEC and leaving CoE to the institutionalists. <br /><br />Recently I published a count of 5 different levels of post covenant communion. I was being generous, as I had 2a, 2b and 2c counted as one. What the covenant will do is formalize fractures.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-37656703031279112912010-12-01T21:13:59.389+01:002010-12-01T21:13:59.389+01:00Which face of Rowan to take at face value? Obviou...Which face of Rowan to take at face value? Obviously not the pre-Lambeth Rowan, who seemed to speak what was in his mind and heart. How can one take the politicking, manipulative Rowan as seen in the address to GS at face value, when he speaks in code to convey a message without clearly stating what he means to say?<br /><br /><i>But it also freezes the Church of England as a whole body.</i><br /><br />Too true.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-10155323271443766622010-12-01T16:15:30.335+01:002010-12-01T16:15:30.335+01:00I suggest a change of denomination, but only for l...I suggest a change of denomination, but only for liberals who really are not 'doctrinally secure' and hanging on. Unitarians, Quakers, URC possibly with its Free to Believe pressure group; Metropolitan Community Church is fully credal. But I have always said Anglican liberals have a very poor record in terms of shopping around, the history of people leaving tends to be at the rigid ends. But I'm making a point that the ethical basis of the C of E is being sacrificed for bureaucratic concerns. Or, yes, a diocese or ordinariate from afar!Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-85492681560094996442010-12-01T16:13:13.980+01:002010-12-01T16:13:13.980+01:00But Adrian is right, it will freeze the CoE. I hav...But Adrian is right, it will freeze the CoE. I have never understood how they cannot see that, how they can seriously vote their own powers to make decisions away like that.<br /><br />In a country where conservatives absolutely detest the political influence from the rest of the EU it is astonishing that its religious wing should now be voting for a Covenant that allows 14 people from other provinces to have a final say over what will and what will not be acceptable in the CoE.<br /><br />Where Colin takes Rowan at his word and believes that what Rowan says will be applied to the Communion for ever, these people clearly seem to believe that only TEC will ever be in the firing line.<br /><br />A major piece of legislation like this should be examined purely based on its wording, not on the words anybody spins around it.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-54480056228578394492010-12-01T14:58:27.991+01:002010-12-01T14:58:27.991+01:00"and really Rowan Williams knows that the Chu..."and really Rowan Williams knows that the Church of England has a central function in this business, whatever he denied, so to retain his and his successors' function in the Communion."<br /><br />Hasn't anyone told the emperor he has no clothes? As of the Jerusalem Declaration (probably before) the only function he and his successors will have is to apologize to King William for reducing the "empire" to a small fiefdom just outside of Windsor.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-86508874113657782662010-12-01T14:03:17.880+01:002010-12-01T14:03:17.880+01:00Clearly, The Episcopal Church should create a dioc...Clearly, The Episcopal Church should create a diocese in England.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-50013877992466876092010-12-01T09:00:25.645+01:002010-12-01T09:00:25.645+01:00Where do you suggest we go? An extra-ordinairiate ...Where do you suggest we go? An extra-ordinairiate for despairing inclusive ethical liberals?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com