tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post4302461916305255160..comments2023-12-15T21:49:46.651+01:00Comments on Pluralist Speaks: So to FundamentalsPluralist (Adrian Worsfold)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-6836708921825047292011-12-09T05:57:10.185+01:002011-12-09T05:57:10.185+01:00It's funny, but I used to think that about Sta...It's funny, but I used to think that about Star Trek beaming as well. If they did just die in the transporter and transmit clones it would greatly diminish the attraction of star trekking.<br /><br />(Same sort of idea, explicitly, in the film, "The Prestige,")<br /><br />But continuity in time is a mystery wholly apart from Star Trek beaming or the resurrection on the Last Day. In a very real sense I am not the same person that I was when I was three years old, or thirty years old. And yet that old Rick didn't die--or I don't think he did. I think that that was me, however different he (I) was.<br /><br />That's a favorite theme of Proust, a suggested denial of the continuity of personality. It's what some people find so attractive about him, and, I think, why I found his novel in many ways so cold and inhuman.<br /><br />It's also, I think, a central intuition underlying the Buddhist denial of the reality of the soul. I can see why the thought would be liberating. <br /><br />My own judgment is that there is, I am, a soul, that there is a continuity and identity there, however much I change, or however "granular" physics may demonstrate time to be (arguably the contemporary notion of space suggests that we "transport" all the time, at a level too small to directly detect.)rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-15603207237344130002011-12-09T04:45:26.397+01:002011-12-09T04:45:26.397+01:00It's funny, but I used to think that about Sta...It's funny, but I used to think that about Star Trek beaming as well. If they did just die in the transporter and transmit clones it would greatly diminish the attraction of star trekking.<br /><br />(Same sort of idea, explicitly, in the film, "The Prestige,")<br /><br />But continuity in time is a mystery wholly apart from Star Trek beaming or the resurrection on the Last Day. In a very real sense I am not the same person that I was when I was three years old, or thirty years old. And yet that old Rick didn't die--or I don't think he did. I think that that was me, however different he (I) was.<br /><br />That's a favorite theme of Proust, a suggested denial of the continuity of personality. It's what some people find so attractive about him, and, I think, why I found his novel in many ways so cold and inhuman.<br /><br />It's also, I think, a central intuition underlying the Buddhist denial of the reality of the soul. I can see why the thought would be liberating. <br /><br />My own judgment is that there is, I am, a soul, that there is a continuity and identity there, however much I change, or however "granular" physics may demonstrate time to be (arguably the contemporary notion of space suggests that we "transport" all the time, at a level too small to directly detect.)rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-31600415313379194452011-12-09T04:06:37.044+01:002011-12-09T04:06:37.044+01:00I don't think we can rule out reconstitution. ...I don't think we can rule out reconstitution. I was taking an example from Star Trek where they use energy to reconstitute matter. My point was that the destruction involved in turning into energy involved actual death and loss of continuance; the copies live under an illusion of continuation.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-59908847525478052442011-12-08T21:06:08.733+01:002011-12-08T21:06:08.733+01:00"We were obviously constituted once. We know ..."We were obviously constituted once. We know of no real technique for being re-constituted. But until we fully understand and can account for our originally being constituted, I don't see how "science" can rule out re-constitution."<br /><br />Great stuff - helps me express what I think - thanks.Rev R Marszalekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831340057673771787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-46088833665576698722011-12-07T20:46:54.988+01:002011-12-07T20:46:54.988+01:00Why do you assume that the brain and a human perso...Why do you assume that the brain and a human person are one and the same? If we are known by God and He 'remembers' us, how can you assert He will 'forget' because WE are brain-dead?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-23966932069720931092011-12-06T20:55:41.969+01:002011-12-06T20:55:41.969+01:00Pluralist,
If one day we all find that your blog ...Pluralist,<br /><br />If one day we all find that your blog no longer appears, could it be that you have finally convinced yourself that you don't actually exist?<br /><br />IconoclastAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-77914176862377162462011-12-06T18:33:11.994+01:002011-12-06T18:33:11.994+01:00"The brain is damaged by death."
Much m..."The brain is damaged by death."<br /><br />Much more than the brain, and much more than damage--"ashes to ashes, dust to dust."<br /><br />And I agree that freezing isn't the answer to much more than preserving leftover turkey.<br /><br />My objection--a general one--is to these "Science says..." assertions. Obviously most of us don't experience the dead coming back. I don't blame you for not believing it. But scientific accounts of consciousness are so tenuous at this point I don't see that it's really justified to make those kinds of appeal, tempting as it is to have such an authority on one's side.<br /><br />We were obviously constituted once. We know of no real technique for being re-constituted. But until we fully understand and can account for our originally being constituted, I don't see how "science" can rule out re-constitution.rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-50453905117599824472011-12-06T18:21:05.013+01:002011-12-06T18:21:05.013+01:00A dear friend of mine before his Anglican ordinati...A dear friend of mine before his Anglican ordination service wrote a disclaimer on the 39 articles of faith saying basically that had he lived when they were written - yes he could sign up to them - but today (1960's) he must recontextualize. (he had a forward thinking or should that be radical Bishop - John Robinson)<br /><br />Needless to say I know him because he's a member of SOF. There once was a way around these things - I wonder if this would happen now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-43666560858830220832011-12-06T18:11:13.952+01:002011-12-06T18:11:13.952+01:00Adrian, you are who you are, and I did not think I...Adrian, you are who you are, and I did not think I'd change your mind by my comment.<br /><br /><i>It's not literalism but honesty.</i><br /><br />Fine.<br /><br />I hope it does not follow that you attribute dishonesty to those who find meaning in a story within a faith tradition, which, for them, points to a universal truth.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-28105315146126936882011-12-06T17:48:55.630+01:002011-12-06T17:48:55.630+01:00The brain is damaged by death - those who think th...The brain is damaged by death - those who think they can die and be frozen and then recovered are on a loser. The loss of information regarding black holes is rather more theoretical.<br /><br />One can run it at a level of pure myth, but Christianity carries a central claim that Jesus the man was God on earth, and was resurrected. Of course I can say it is myth: can I therefore make a promise to a bishop on this point clearly and preach on it clearly?<br /><br />My friend Rachel and Christina Baxter say is it real, and from its reality the 'myth' has its power. I say the myth has power as it relates to the natural world of dying and renewed life - but as far as Jesus was concerned nothing happened. Because of beliefs in resurrection and a returning messiah, this is attached to him and then gets the myth attached, but with the loss of belief in resurrection only a more general renewal makes any sense.<br /><br />It's not literalism but honesty.Pluralist (Adrian Worsfold)https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922153724523820866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-73675736776565966792011-12-06T14:45:35.513+01:002011-12-06T14:45:35.513+01:00"The first scientific point is that when we d..."The first scientific point is that when we die, the brain dies in such a way that it cannot be retrieved. It is not only dormant, it is lost."<br /><br />I was under the impression that modern physics held that nothing was irretrievable (just finished a popular book focused on whether information falling into a black hole is lost--consensus is that it's not).<br /><br />That hardly proves the resurrection, or even makes it probable. But I think your "irretrievable loss" point is not exactly supported by current science.rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-43449412003524587642011-12-06T08:24:15.083+01:002011-12-06T08:24:15.083+01:00G.W.H Lampe's Easter Sermon 1965 remains my fa...G.W.H Lampe's Easter Sermon 1965 remains my favorite sermon written on the 'resurrection'. Personally, I prefer 'spiritual' awakening, a realization that life can be transformed (a Spring festival - renewal and rebirth) pointless arguing over the historicity, I prefer 'myth' precisely because I can make sense of this...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-6823175584038601862011-12-06T07:48:20.502+01:002011-12-06T07:48:20.502+01:00Well said Grandmere.
Adrian, Christianity doesn&...Well said Grandmere. <br /><br />Adrian, Christianity doesn't ask people to follow Jesus of Nazareth, but Jesus the Christ. <br /><br />I wonder sometimes if you're wholly a materialist with a penchant for exploring mysticism. Arguably Jesus of Nazareth was a mystic exploring the material.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5449677811690616608.post-76254121509306568562011-12-06T06:43:33.069+01:002011-12-06T06:43:33.069+01:00Adrian, if you were not a literalist, you could be...Adrian, if you were not a literalist, you could be Anglican.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com